Comrades, there is distressing news today from the Motherland. Rumors that the Russian military may discard their beloved AK-47 rifles and, and...(I can hardly bring myself to say this) they are considering adopting the M-16 or M-4 American NATO design.
~
There is talk suddenly that Russia may abandon it's iconic rifle, the AK-47. Truth is many other nations, like China, manufacture copies of the gun and do it cheaper. But beside that is the belief in Russian military circles that the Kalashnikov design has outlived it's usefulness along with the 7.62mm round it fires. Many years ago the Russian's attempted to breath new life into the design with the AK-74 which fires a round even smaller and less powerful than the M-16's 5.56mm NATO round.

Now we have this news just hitting the wire…

“Mr. Serdyukov stated that the Russian small arms had become outdated, and added that Russia could purchase small arms from abroad. The main problem here is that Russia does not have anyone to work in the gun-making industry because of low salaries. Purchasing small arms from abroad can entirely destroy the industry in Russia,” gun designer Dmitry Shirayev told Pravda.Ru.

In a related story…

The management at a factory producing Kalashnikov guns in Russia's Kirov Oblast is paying its workers in food in place of their regular salaries.

The Molot factory in Vyatskiye Polyany distributed buckwheat, rice, sugar, pasta, and sunflower oil to some 100 workers earlier this week.

The food was provided to the factory by local businessmen. Today another group of some 100 workers received foodstuffs instead of money for their salaries.

The Molot factory has experienced economic problems since the government reduced its orders from the company last year. The largest Kalashnikov factory, in Izhmash, was closed down for much of 2009.

So will they buy American or, possibly, French rifles? Regardless which nation they choose it looks like the 5.56mm round will be the big winner since every nation other than those using the AK-47 use the NATO round.

h/t https://waznmentobe.com/2011/01/21/will ... -the-m-16/

Colonel, I'm so very sorry you had to hear this from me.

French? The French do not use gunnery, do they? But I digress. I don't know what Colonel 7.62 will do. Upgrade himself, perhaps?

The gunnery is a nice fit though.

I have to hand it to you Frau, you are well versed in short small arms.

Say it ain't so. No wonder Izmash pushes the export line of Saiga rifles and shotguns so heavily to the US.

I am saddened by this. And horrified. The M16. I thought Russians were smarter than that.

Also, if they buy from France, there is precedent for that. The Mosin Nagant rifle was originally built in France to Russian specificiations.

Comrades! This is wonderful news for democracy!

Now everybody in the world will be killing each other with the same guns and bullets. And seizing the weapons and ammo stash from the other side will become ever more useful.

A truly level killing field. Nobody has superior weapons to anybody else. Fully automatic so no skills needed. Just like spraying the lawn with a hose.

It's like the People's Cube TM

Colonel 7.62 wrote:
Also, if they buy from France, there is precedent for that. The Mosin Nagant rifle was originally built in France to Russian specificiations.

Wait just a Marxist minute Colonel, did you not ridicule (in an earlier thread) the quality of Hotchkiss cannons because they were made in France?

Honestly I myself am a little shocked that the Russian's would dump the Kalashnikov design. They and other former Combloc nations spent so much time trying to update the gun by changing the wooden furniture for plastic, experimenting with muzzle brakes and launching dozens of new folding stock designs. At most I expected they'd give up on their puny 5.4mm rd. and just rechamber the AK-74 for the NATO rd.

I think they may adopt the French MAS bullpup design for no other reason than because it isn't American. Plus they recently signed a deal with France to buy other armaments.

Comrades!
I thought all inner-party members knew the real reason we're abandoning the AK-47. Putin's Mistress told me so.


--SpyMasterAnnaChapman

Fraulein Pulloskies wrote:French? The French do not use gunnery, do they? But I digress. I don't know what Colonel 7.62 will do. Upgrade himself, perhaps?

The gunnery is a nice fit though.

The attachment AK display.jpg is no longer available

COMRADE WHOOPIE, PUT THAT BACK. What if Comrade Ivan regains more of himself and that appendage is missing! For shame on you.

Dear Buffoon, I really do look good with that gunnery, do I not. My my my, yes, praise Obama! (and I do like the auntieism. Auntie Frau has a ring to it.)

Auntie Frau, how charming. I'm sure your family and friends would agree.

I cannot believe you found my private pictures on Facebook, since I have it set to ultra private (just for that reason). You are a sneaky one, you are. I just updated this morning though. Is this not a lovely family portrait of my sister and her family. The youngest, Herman, is such a cute little thing. Especially without his spectacles.

Since you aresuch a busybody . . . snoopy . . . so interested, here is another family photo. Please do not be curious about the "what appears to be blood spots....". As I was told, it was just a small mishap after a weekly family meeting on discussing the "wonders of the Obama administration". (sorry for such a large photo, but I do not have reduction skills at my work site)

Frau, what charming critters relatives you have. Was your maiden name Addams by any chance?

(dang it, I seem to have developed severe giggle spasms as a result of your posts)

Buck up, Colonel. .308 is just 7.62 by another name.

Comrade Whoopie wrote:

AK display.jpg

Comrades, there is distressing news today from the Motherland. Rumors that the Russian military may discard their beloved AK-47 rifles and, and...(I can hardly bring myself to say this) they are considering adopting the M-16 or M-4 American NATO design.
~
There is talk suddenly that Russia may abandon it's iconic rifle, the AK-47. Truth is many other nations, like China, manufacture copies of the gun and do it cheaper. But beside that is the belief in Russian military circles that the Kalashnikov design has outlived it's usefulness along with the 7.62mm round it fires. Many years ago the Russian's attempted to breath new life into the design with the AK-74 which fires a round even smaller and less powerful than the M-16's 5.56mm NATO round.

Comrade Whoopie,

It would appear that they are looking for "safer" guns with "safer" bullets in having smaller rounds. Who better to explain this than the former Surgeon General. The lecture starts at 1:49



That's OK if they want to revert back to M-16 as long as we get to have this:


Barrett .50CAL Sniper Rifle.

I'll take the original, thank you.

Whinny-da-PBUH wrote: It would appear that they are looking for "safer" guns with "safer" bullets in having smaller rounds.

They're wasting their time Whinny. I bought an AR thinking the smaller bullets were safer. To test the safety I fired a round at a small tree with a 5" trunk (certain the tiny bullet would do it no harm). Indeed the front of the tree seemed unaffected but the back of the tree was all splintered. Thinking I just had a defective bullet I fired 3 more shots at the same spot on the tree and the darned thing toppled over!

Well I spent the next few weeks crying because I thought I'd killed a poor innocent tree. But the next time I visited the spot to lay flowers I noticed that fresh new branches were sprouting from the shattered tree trunk.

So maybe those teensy bullets aren't so deadly after all. But safe? I wouldn't go that far.

Comrade Whoopie wrote:

Whinny-da-PBUH wrote: It would appear that they are looking for "safer" guns with "safer" bullets in having smaller rounds.

They're wasting their time Whinny. I bought an AR thinking the smaller bullets were safer. To test the safety I fired a round at a small tree with a 5" trunk (certain the tiny bullet would do it no harm). Indeed the front of the tree seemed unaffected but the back of the tree was all splintered. Thinking I just had a defective bullet I fired 3 more shots at the same spot on the tree and the darned thing toppled over!

Well I spent the next few weeks crying because I thought I'd killed a poor innocent tree. But the next time I visited the spot to lay flowers I noticed that fresh new branches were sprouting from the shattered tree trunk.

So maybe those teensy bullets aren't so deadly after all. But safe? I wouldn't go that far.

Us people who play with guns know that an AR15 shoots the .223 cartridge (aka 5.56x45). Which whizzes out the end of the barrel at speeds exceeding 3000 fps.

I was a bad, BAD boy and used a 22-250 instead. I ain't even gonna tell you what a 70 grain semi-spitzer bullet will do shot out of that thing. These are "tack drivers" and mine shot 1/4 MOA. Which means you can put 4 out 5 shots in the same 1/4" hole in a target 200 yards away. Or a pop can a quarter mile away.

And your tree probably was something like a Cottonwood. A small chunk will grow roots and a new little tree. That's why we called them Cottonweeds.

Oh, and the "safer" NATO round is what's called a "full metal jacket". Which is "safer" as opposed to spitzer or hollow point. The idea the military had was if you merely wound a soldier, you take out at least 3 guys helping take care of their injured buddy with a hole in him.

If you blow a big hole in him and splash parts of him everywhere, his buddies have nothing to do but shoot back at you with more enthusiasm.

Scratchy, as a medic we were taught that the 7.62mm FMJ bullet tends to switch ends as it passes through the body exiting base first. The lighter, faster 5.56mm FMJ also tries to swap ends but when it turns sideways it breaks apart explosively sending secondary fragments all through the tissue, much like a hollowpoint. The color slides of actual wounds were very sobering.

Both rounds are quite lethal but kill in different ways. Of course the 7.62 has the advantage when employed in an anti-materiel role. For damaging weapons systems and other military equipment the more solidly constructed bullet does more damage.

Comrade Whoopie wrote:Scratchy, as a medic we were taught that the 7.62mm FMJ bullet tends to switch ends as it passes through the body exiting base first. The lighter, faster 5.56mm FMJ also tries to swap ends but when it turns sideways it breaks apart explosively sending secondary fragments all through the tissue, much like a hollowpoint. The color slides of actual wounds were very sobering.

Both rounds are quite lethal but kill in different ways. Of course the 7.62 has the advantage when employed in an anti-materiel role. For damaging weapons systems and other military equipment the more solidly constructed bullet does more damage.

I started typing a nice technical reply and decided to just wipe it.

Wrong forum.

I will say that I have no idea why they taught you that.

Oh no, this forum will do. The Colonel has been lobbying to get a special forum for such discussions for some time (to no avail).

Why a bullet swaps ends is a matter of physics, the base is heavier than the nose so when it meets resistance the base flips over. The 5.56mm bullet has very low sectional density and in flipping over the high velocity overcomes the structural integrity and the bullet breaks in two along the channelure, the thin jacket peels away and the lead fragments creating secondary missiles.

Now the new greentip being heavier has more sectional density and is less likely to break apart. However the nose is filled with steel which is lighter than the lead in the base so it really wants to flip over and tumble (pinwheel) when it encounters a soft target.

Sadly the new M-4 with it's shorter barrel (and hence lower velocity) detracts from both bullet's lethality. At distance the 55gr. bullet no longer fragments and at close range the greentip 62gr. simply zips through the target without tumbling.

I've heard that Special Forces units have been purchasing civilian 70 gr. Sierra Matchking hollowpoint ammo that seems to perform way better at all ranges from the M-4.

(I always thought the 6mm Remington would have been a better choice than the .223)

Comrade Whoopie wrote:Oh no, this forum will do. The Colonel has been lobbying to get a special forum for such discussions for some time (to no avail).

Why a bullet swaps ends is a matter of physics, the base is heavier than the nose so when it meets resistance the base flips over. The 5.56mm bullet has very low sectional density and in flipping over the high velocity overcomes the structural integrity and the bullet breaks in two along the channelure, the thin jacket peels away and the lead fragments creating secondary missiles.

Now the new greentip being heavier has more sectional density and is less likely to break apart. However the nose is filled with steel which is lighter than the lead in the base so it really wants to flip over and tumble (pinwheel) when it encounters a soft target.

Sadly the new M-4 with it's shorter barrel (and hence lower velocity) detracts from both bullet's lethality. At distance the 55gr. bullet no longer fragments and at close range the greentip 62gr. simply zips through the target without tumbling.

I've heard that Special Forces units have been purchasing civilian 70 gr. Sierra Matchking hollowpoint ammo that seems to perform way better at all ranges from the M-4.

(I always thought the 6mm Remington would have been a better choice than the .223)

Thirty to fourty years ago, I did a lot of shooting and reloading. I shot a bunch of 55 grain spire points, and up to 400 52 grain Speer Match hollow points a DAY, and probably 500 rounds of 70 grain spitzer boat tails a year. So suffice it to be said that I know how these honeys behave.

Of course hollow points blow up. That's what they are designed to do. I have seen spitzers peel the jacket completely off and blow up on bones. And they certainly do tumble.

But the spire points go through like an arrow. They will turn sideways after hitting bone. Never seen one blow up or separate, except for shooting them at a steel plate.

As for the 6mm, the 244 Remington cartridge is a lot more sexy than the 243. But they screwed up the twist rate in the early 244 and after they figured that out, even renaming it the 6mm Remington didn't save it.

The only reason NATO switched to 223 was supposedly being able to pack a lot more rounds. At ranges up to perhaps 300 yards they are OK for wounding guys so they need the medics. But beyond that, they have the trajectory of a rainbow and low residual energy.

Shame about the 6mm Rem. The .243 has too much casing for a military rd. but the 6mm had the right proportions. Just a larger version of the .223 or a smaller version of the .308...

Of course I thought the .257 Roberts would've made a good replacement for the .308 but then the 7mm Mauser woulda' been peachy also.

Comrade Whoopie wrote:Shame about the 6mm Rem. The .243 has too much casing for a military rd. but the 6mm had the right proportions. Just a larger version of the .223 or a smaller version of the .308...

Of course I thought the .257 Roberts would've made a good replacement for the .308 but then the 7mm Mauser woulda' been peachy also.

That's why it is so much fun to be a gunsmith. You can build whatever sort of wildcat you want. Like the .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer

Here's some more great wildcats- (The 5.56x45 and 50cal BMG are not wildcats. They are there for comparison purposes)