During my days as a Fascist Stormtrooper of the Criminal Bourgeois Elites (Thank Stalin I was cured!), I flew that helicopter route around DC a couple times (It was an excuse for us to go to DC and schmooze at HQ). I remember being much lower, I think 200ft while in that area. I recall looking out the window and seeing the Watergate Hotel and the National Mall all lined up and we weren't that much higher than the hotel. This was like last century so, things may have changed. I'm also surprised that they didn't have another person in the back as it was night, under NVG's. In this case, the crewchief was on the right and if the pilot flying was in the right seat, there was only one set of eyes out the left. Very sad all the way around.
As Always, in great anticipation of the GWONT,
Dimitri
During my days as a Fascist Stormtrooper of the Criminal Bourgeois Elites (Thank Stalin I was cured!), I flew that helicopter route around DC a couple times (It was an excuse for us to go to DC and schmooze at HQ). I remember being much lower, I think 200ft while in that area. I recall looking out the window and seeing the Watergate Hotel and the National Mall all lined up and we weren't that much higher than the hotel. This was like last century so, things may have changed. I'm also surprised that they didn't have another person in the back as it was night, under NVG's. In this case, the crewchief was on the right and if the pilot flying was in the right seat, there was only one set of eyes out the left. Very sad all the way around.
As Always, in great anticipation of the GWONT,
Dimitri
Interesting and informative, comrade. Which type of culturally appropriated rotor craft did you fly?
2/3/2025, 12:21 pm
Red Zeppelin
Everywhere you go there's lots of speculation, lots of finger pointing, etc.
My personal opinion is this:
The CRJ was exactly where it was supposed to be. The crew was on final for 33, focusing on all the things you do on final (checklists, runway alignment, etc.) and were not in a situation where they would expect traffic at their altitude coming from 2 o'clock, and in that light-saturated environment likely wouldn't have seen it or been able to take any action if they did.
All evidence so far appears to indicate the Blackhawk was too high, and was possibly focused on other traffic, not realizing Rwy 33 was even in use. We do not know if it was a bad altimeter setting, or if they were not holding altitude, or? Light saturation was an issue here, too.
Lots of fingers are being pointed at Captain Lobach, who was supposedly piloting the Blackhawk and undergoing a Check Ride. All indications are she was an excellent officer, but it's noteworthy that she only had 450 hours (some sources say 500) of flight time. Ultimately, if she was flying, she collided with the other aircraft. Regardless of what else was going on, that's her fault. "See and Avoid", as the saying goes.
Digging into that, with the good Captain having 450 hours, how many were in-type? How many were in that specific model of Blackhawk (i.e, with that instrument and comms arrangement, etc.)? While undergoing a check flight, what else was going on in the cockpit, distraction-wise?* Often check pilots will be talking to you as you do things; I know that I used to do a talk-through of what I was doing as I was doing it when getting checked out. As part of Cockpit Resource Management, common practice for airliners is "Sterile Cockpit" below 10,000 feet and in the vicinity of an airport (no unnecessary chatter - business at hand only). And, some have said they were wearing NVGs, which would make a bad situation worse, especially since light saturation was already an issue.
A bigger issue is how she was selected for that assignment. I know the Army always pushes us to, "Challenge our Limits, Not Limit our Challenges", regardless of our MOS, but flying that route is a hell of a lot to expect for anybody with only 450 hours in the saddle. To do it at night, with NVGs, in some of the heaviest air traffic in the country, and be task-saturated, light saturated and flying a check flight to boot, well, just my opinion, but not a good assignment for a low-time pilot. If I were handing out assignments I'd want to see higher total time and good feedback regarding basic judgement and flying ability before I'd put her in that situation.
In true Army fashion, she tried to rise to the challenge.....didn't end well.
Also, since the mission they were practicing for was executive evacuation / relocation in time of crisis, it's implied you'd want some more seasoned aviators assigned to it in the first place.
The controller isn't entirely blameless, either - when they appeared to be at the same altitude and on a collision course, he should have called, "PAT25, Immediate left turn to heading 150°- collision avoidance" or something similar. He did call for the helicopter to pass behind the CRJ, which was also bad.....at 200-300 feet I wouldn't want to pass closely behind anything the size of a CRJ with a helicopter. I could tell stories about that, but I won't.
So, in short, ultimately it was the helicopter pilot that hit the CRJ, with a bunch of aggravating factors that put them in a situation where that could happen, plus a controller that did not react quick enough to a developing bad situation.
My three cents (two cents adjusted for inflation)......
BTW, where's Ivan? He's our resident Rotor Head in the Collective.....
*For those that have read E.K. Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter", matches come to mind.....
2/3/2025, 7:32 pm
Kommissar Uberdave
Komrade Komissar al-Blogunov, I'm not a pilot, but as an enlisted member of the Kamrade Premier James Earl Carter Военно-воздушные силы России, I worked for a composite unit that had a helicopter detachment equipped with Vietnam era CH-3s, the original Jolly Green Giants. They were getting a bit long in the tooth, and were fairly patched up after taking no small amount of hits in the war, at one point it seemed that one per month autorotated into the swamp. Although I didn't work on them, I became familiar with their operation.
"Rebecca worked in the Biden White House..."
Not to be too disrespectful to the recently deceased, but considering that the enemedia insisted that Captain Lobach was not at the controls, the general hideous nature of Josef Stolen acolytes, that Lobach had the most flight time, and that the rest of the crew were considerably junior to her, could a backseat driving Karen with captain's bars and a chip on her shoulders have been the ultimate distraction?
Ivan is on station, overwatching the bloviations of newscasters who have Zero time in any helicopter interview any blackhawk driver who wants to be famous for any 4 minute interview. I was in fact an AH-64 pilot in the Army, I even had the "opportunity" to investigate an aircraft crash with no fatalities involved. At one point, I "owned" 3 blackhawks and their crews.
I'm judging nobody and believing nothing until the Army Safety Center releases its report. The FAA and NTSB will provide "Show-trial" commentary and write their preliminary reports to keep the news channels interested and then adjust their stuff to fit released facts based on the ultimate findings (current truth™) of the Army who will "cavity search" that unit and every decision and scrap of paper for months leading up to the night of the crash. This investigation is going to be extremely difficult, but the Army Safety guys are the best in the business.
Known Facts: UH-60's are not built to smack into jet aircraft from any angle or speed and should stay away from moving and stationary things at all times. Blakhawks have lots of windows, few of which do any good. Flying at night is hard in any aircraft. Flying using Night Vision Goggles is harder. Flying near major airports is also hard like 3-dimensional chess; and it's a team sport that requires both (all) pilots and air traffic controllers to keep everybody away from everybody else in an orderly manner or it becomes a full contact extreme sport. if ATC tells a pilot anything, it's because something bad will happen if pilots don't take an appropriate action, if you don't understand or don't see what ATC is telling you is there, it's up to you to ask for help and get it right quickly. Lights reflecting from rivers look like stars, and in the event of the slightest amount of confusion or ANY obscured vision, safety is found UP because stuff that breaks your aircraft is generally lower than you are, (pull up sharply on the uppy-downy lever (formally called a collective) in your left hand, and verify a positive rate of climb on instruments). Aircraft near your altitude that are approaching or departing from where you are and where you are going appear as a stationary light or object. Check rides (Day, Night + Night Vision System, and Instruments) come around annually, just like the prostate exam--you don't have to like it, but you do have to do it and PASS all of them. There are more, but these are most relevant for now.
If any one of these went too far, something bad happens to helicopters. I can't speak for Jet pilots, but there were two Jet pilots in a fast moving airplane in this event too, experiencing a difficult situation in this airspace at the same time. In this case, any one or combination of more than one caused two aircraft in radio and radar contact with a tower to fly into the same airspace and each other, and 64 people paid for the mistakes. We don't know who had something as simple as an improper altimeter setting, who was recovering from an in-flight problem and was focused elsewhere, who did or did not have visibility of who, what angle and airspeed was each aircraft at the time and point of impact, who hit who, or why. But we will.
We can't even begin to "what if" until we have data and facts. The wreckage needs to be recovered and the Army will reconstruct events leading up to the accident, and then from the first scratch of paint to the instant that everything went very quiet. Give the good guys time.
Yesterday in Church, I was involved in no less than 3 discussions between the front door and my usual cheap seat in the back on this very topic. My response was and remains, "the accident was an accident, a tragic accident. We will find out more about what happened when the Army has reviewed the data, and please trust that the guys doing that job can un-scramble the eggs the crew ate for breakfast the morning before the crash. Give them time."
All Tractor operations are hereby on a 72 hour safety-stand-down. Management and staff of Tractor Barn #2 extend deepest sympathies to families of all aircrew and passengers involved.
2/4/2025, 1:22 am
Ivan Betinov
Thanks, Other Ivan. It really is good to hear from somebody who has BTDT and says "let's wait and see what the data tells us" rather than pontificating just to hear his gums flap.
During my days as a Fascist Stormtrooper of the Criminal Bourgeois Elites (Thank Stalin I was cured!), I flew that helicopter route around DC a couple times (It was an excuse for us to go to DC and schmooze at HQ). I remember being much lower, I think 200ft while in that area. I recall looking out the window and seeing the Watergate Hotel and the National Mall all lined up and we weren't that much higher than the hotel. This was like last century so, things may have changed. I'm also surprised that they didn't have another person in the back as it was night, under NVG's. In this case, the crewchief was on the right and if the pilot flying was in the right seat, there was only one set of eyes out the left. Very sad all the way around.
As Always, in great anticipation of the GWONT,
Dimitri
Interesting and informative, comrade. Which type of culturally appropriated rotor craft did you fly?
Comrade, please excuse the slow response as I've been on a very long bender due to the cancelation of my grant from USAID. Most of my time was on what is now referred to as 'legacy' aircraft, UH-1 and OH-58. With just years to retire, I was 'gifted' a transition to the 'advanced' OH-58D, it was a P I G PIG! I guess being an ass to all the right people didn't pay off, huh? Never learned my lesson, went for the grant instead of a real job. My judgement has a lot to be desired, ask my probation officer.
As Always, in Great Socialist Brotherhood,
Dimitri
3/9/2025, 3:44 pm
Ivan the Stakhanovets
Comrade Dimitri,
Good of you to come "out" as a member of the alternate lifestyle of pilots of the highest order (if you can't hover, you're... well, you know...).
I too have time (much of it under NVG's) in the UH-1 and OH-58C (my beloved Aerial Volkswagen), plus the AH-1 Cobra and AH-64A Apache. I was privileged in 1992 to be part of testing the prototype of what is now the AH-64 D Longbow.
I agree with your assessment, and Red Zeppelin too. I'm still waiting for the Army Safety Center report, as they are the closest to understanding who does what and how things happened. They will have the final word (and the Party™ line).
Join us in Tractor Barn #2 on Fridays after the shovels are cleaned and inventoried, then after the Zampolit's blah-blah riveting political indoctrination speeches and singing of the workers' songs, we can retire to enjoy some fermented light refreshments and trade stories of who was where when and with which bunch of hooligans...
3/9/2025, 9:25 pm
Dimitri Kissov
Esteemed Comrade Ivan,
Spasiba for such a kind invitation, unfortunately I'm on the outs with the Party™ due to late beet quotas. The 'newcomers' I was paying to fulfill my share have vamoosed as I'm unable to pay them since my USAID grant to help disadvantaged migrant farmworkers has been canceled. I'm not sure the ICE agents driving around town helped either. Ah, to fly is fine, to hover is heavenly. I of course renounce my time in service to the Imperialist Fascist Bullyboys, but I do still cash their checks, ha ha. The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with, Eh Comrades? Eh?
This incident was a true tragedy, and may some information that may stop another one like it be gleaned. I was always a big fan of FlightFax, I remember reading all the old ones (like from the 70's) in the safety office when on staff duty. It's good to learn from the events of the past, though it seems we tend to repeat them. As the owner of many a VW (Peoples Car) I have to say the -58 A/C was the beetle and the UH-1 the Bus/Combi. So easy to fix, worked good, last long time. I volunteer on a UH-1 at a local Aviation Museum. -58's are hard to find for a museum, all the police departments took them. We're looking hard though.
